BONUS EPISODE: The Points Guy Sues American Airlines

Brian Kelly: So I find the timing a little bit curious that they want to cut off all of these apps that help their members get more value out of the program.

Gary Leff: But American wants engaged members because they're profitable, and I think that this really is about the capturing the eyeballs of consumers.

Speaker 3: Climb aboard. This is the Miles to Go Podcast, your source for the latest in travel news, reviews, and strategies you can't afford to miss. And now, here's your host, travel expert and road warrior, Ed Pizza.

Ed Pizza: Hey guys, welcome back to the Miles to Go Podcast. We've got a bonus episode this week covering something that just popped up on our radar. Don't worry. We'll have a regular episode on Wednesday, complete with a full helping of Mr. Kerr, but I had an opportunity to bring you guys some bonus content that I found pretty interesting. I've been in the travel space for a couple of decades now, and I can't say I had this one on my bingo card. We learned this week that the popular travel website, The Points Guy, has filed suit against American Airlines in a dispute over the new TPG app.
It seems that American Airlines doesn't like how TPG uses consumer data in the app. Customers are able to link their accounts in the app so that they can see all their balances in one place. We wanted to take a deeper look into the situation, and I managed to track down a couple of key guests. First up, we have the founder of TPG, Brian Kelly. He stopped by the show to share his perspective and that of TPG as to why this dispute has risen to the level of lawyers and lawsuits. I was also able to track down Gary Leff of View from the Wing to offer his opinion. Let's dive right into my interview with Brian.
Back on the Miles to Go Podcast, and I'm joined by Brian Kelly, the founder of The Points Guy. Many of our listeners are very familiar with The Points Guy. Brian started TPG as a one-man show back in 2010 and has since built a travel brand with roughly 100 employees. As most of our listeners know, I am a freelance writer for The Points Guy, however, we didn't invite Brian on to talk about a story on TPG's website, but to get a firsthand look into a dispute that TPG finds themselves in with one of the largest airlines in the US, American Airlines. Brian, welcome to the show.

Brian Kelly: Thanks for having me. How are you doing?

Ed Pizza: I'm doing good, man. When you think back here, I can't imagine when you started TPG over a decade ago, you'd find yourself trading lawsuits with a major airline. That's a little bit of a left hand turn. But maybe we're getting ahead of ourself. For folks that may not know, let's frame up the new TPG app first and how that sort of led to where we are today.

Brian Kelly: Yeah. Ed, I think we can all agree that points and miles can be a little bit confusing, especially if you've got multiple accounts, credit cards, bonus categories. So we created the TPG app as a kind of one-stop shop to consolidate all your miles and points. I love the feature that you can get your net worth in points and then also set trip goals. The whole point is to give people an overall view of their balances and then help them travel, to actually get people to use their points because, as we all know, there are so many points hoarders out there.
It's a free app. We launched it in 2021, and we plan to expand on it to bring more people into the game, so to speak.

Ed Pizza: Yeah, for sure. I am guilty of being one of those points hoarders. It's been hard to use all my points and miles during the pandemic, so I continue to find my balances increasing. That's sort of where we got to this crossroads. So American has expressed some concerns with some of the functionality of the TPG app and the part that I think you guys probably imagined would be very valuable to the folks that are downloading and using the app on a daily basis. What Is it specifically that American is concerned about here with what TPG has rolled out?

Brian Kelly: Well, from what we understand, they're upset that we're allowing their members to track their points. In December of 2021, they cease-and-desisted AwardWallet, which had a direct, secure connection with them for over a decade. Essentially, American says, "We want our members going directly to us." We dispute that because we think it's better when people get alerted when their miles are going to expire. April 1st, 2022, American's going to start expiring their members' balances again. So I find the timing a little bit curious that they want to cut off all of these apps that help their members get more value out of the program.
We're pushing back against that, because we're a consumer website, and we think it's in the consumer's best interest, if they want to and they give us access, we think we should be able to track their balances and give them all sorts of insights.

Ed Pizza: Yeah. I think an important point to note here, and this sort of came up with the AwardWallet issue that we saw pop up last year, but this doesn't really represent a security issue for folks that are using products to track their points and miles, right?

Brian Kelly: I mean absolutely not. I mean this is about dollars and about American Airlines. They are not really thinking about their customer here. They're thinking about themselves. They want people to go directly to their website so that they can upsell you on different items and whatnot. We just think it's the 21st century. Consumers want to use apps that make them smarter, that save them time. In the loyalty world, you might have 20, 30, or 40 accounts. It's not in the consumer's best interest to have to manually go to each and every one of those accounts to see their balances and see the big picture.

Ed Pizza: We've certainly seen precedent for products like this in the banking world, dating all the way back to mint.com and ways for us to be able to see all of our balances in one place. Given, those are those are a little bit different than points and miles, but there's plenty of precedent here for customers being able to see all of their information in one place.
Based on what you guys have seen so far since the launch of the app, have you had any other loyalty programs similar to American or maybe any of the hotel programs, have anybody else expressed this sort of concern that American has?

Brian Kelly: No. I think most people or most programs realize that when you get people engaged with the program, they're better customers. So in terms of legal issues or cease and desist, we've not received them from any program. I truly believe the more tools you give the consumer, the more you allow them to easily access loyalty and understand it, the better it is for everyone. At The Points Guy, we're all about travel, empowering people to use the points they have, maximize the credit cards they have. So at the end of the day, I think that's a net positive for the industry and for airlines. So we've not had the same sort of reaction from other programs.

Ed Pizza: Yeah. For folks that are listening that haven't dialed into this yet, it is fairly easy to add your points programs in the app. It's a very secure process. I downloaded and tested it when the app came out. It does give you this dashboard appeal to be able to look at everything else. From the standpoint of how to use your points and miles, as Brian notes, it can be a very complicated process. We want to make sure that we're getting the best value for those points and miles. We put the time and effort into earning them.
As we stand here right now, American has had a preliminary response to TPG here in the legal space. But I guess the open-ended question right now is what's next? How far is TPG willing to take this fight against a behemoth like American Airlines?

Brian Kelly: For us, The Points Guy is owned by Red Ventures and our legal team is kind of in control of this now, and we're firmly behind the consumer. Certainly, we don't want to be focusing on lawsuits. I think at The Points Guy, our best value is helping consumers use their points and miles. So hopefully, we can come to a resolution. But if not, we're certainly well-equipped to fight for the right for consumers to have a choice.

Ed Pizza: Well, Brian, I definitely think you guys could be in for a long haul. We'll have to wait and see where the legal battle goes, but I appreciate you stopping by and giving folks a look at the landscape of what this fight means for consumers and how they should think about their points and miles. We talk about that a lot on the show, that folks should definitely be invested in making sure that they're getting the most out of whatever it is that they're earning for points and miles.
While this is some heavy stuff, I'd love to try and end on a slightly happier note. Omicron is still kicking up some steam, but I see positivity rates dropping, and that means a lot of folks are getting out to travel and gosh knows that you've been to some awesome places. As you look out on the horizon for 2022, is there any place that you're looking forward to either getting back to or exploring this year?

Brian Kelly: I've got a couple on my to-do list. I'm really looking forward to Patagonia. I started riding horses over the pandemic and now own a couple horses. I'd love to just do a horse tour through Patagonia. Also, United has a bunch of new routes coming out this summer, nonstop flights to Mallorca and the Azores. The Azores are probably number two on my list. Have you ever been?

Ed Pizza: I have. I did a brief stop over on the way to Web Summit a handful of years ago and was just amazed. I had no plan going in, rented a car for ... I was there for probably about 48 hours and can't wait to go back and explore it again. As you mentioned, it's a little bit of a tough place to get to from the US. So that nonstop on United sure is appealing.

Brian Kelly: Yeah. It's not lie-flat seats, which is kind of against my motto, but I hear it's just so unbelievably beautiful. Yeah. So Azores and Patagonia, here I go.

Ed Pizza: Yeah, those are two great dots to put on the map. I have not been to Patagonia, so I will live vicariously through you and can't wait to hear what you think of the Azores. Brian, thanks for stopping by the show. We really appreciate it.

Brian Kelly: Awesome, Ed. Thanks for having me.

Ed Pizza: We'll be right back on the Miles to Go Podcast.
Okay. Hope you enjoyed hearing Brian share TPG's perspective on this dispute. Next up, we have Gary Leff. Gary's been in the travel world for as long as I have, and he also spends a fair amount of time around lawyers, so he's got a great neutral perspective on this dispute. He joined me from his home in Texas to share a few quick thoughts.
Back on the Miles to Go Podcast, and I am joined by repeat guest of the show, Gary Leff of View from the Wing, who gets to come on the show today. You still get to wear your travel hat, Gary, but you need to strap on the legal one as well. We find ourselves in interesting times here, I guess. Did you ever think we'd see somebody in the travel-writing space suing an airline in this fashion?

Gary Leff: Well, you've been around long enough, you see everything. I didn't necessarily predict this, but the particular move actually makes a little bit of sense because it's only been a couple months since we saw American Airlines shut down access to AwardWallet for checking AAdvantage accounts, and they seem to have made a concerted decision as a company that they want to make sure AAdvantage members go to aa.com to fully engage their program, check their account balances, and not have them engage the program through any third parties.

Ed Pizza: Yeah, for sure. As you heard in my interview with Brian, as they carve it out here, this is something that consumers should have a right to do. But I also wonder here as a "neutral third party," as you see the battlefield here, what do you think that American and TPG are fighting over as it pertains to what we're looking at right now?

Gary Leff: American, when they gave me a statement on this, talked about what they viewed as a security risk. I don't think that's really what's going on here, both because they had a process that they believed met security requirements with AwardWallet and they shut AwardWallet down. There was an API process that had been thoroughly vetted and signed off on there. So it seems to me that this is about monetizing eyeballs, which is what they're in the business of doing and certainly makes sense. I think they're being a little bit shortsighted in terms of what their level of engagement is.
I think third-party apps can increase engagement. You see the activity in your account. It drives you to a dot com more often, rather than less often. I actually think it's better for security when you're constantly checking your account. You see all changes. You would see anything untoward that happens to your account as well, and so you're able to flag missing miles in your account before somebody's taken a flight that they might have redeemed or before some other redemption is shipped. So I think that some of these third-party activities can be helpful.
On the other hand, I think that the framing of, well, American just wants to expire everyone's miles, I don't think that's true at all. There may be some people's miles who expire because they're not checking as often, but American wants engaged members because they're profitable. I think that this really is about capturing the eyeballs of consumers which, frankly, playing in the same way is what The Points Guy is trying to do with its app.
They're trying to offer a service that some consumers will find valuable, and that's also valuable to Red Ventures because there's data that's valuable to monetize. But also, there is engagement and the ability to offer their own other value-add services and revenue-generation opportunities to those customers. So there is a little bit of failing over who gets to use the eyeballs.

Ed Pizza: For sure. I mean we're only weeks removed from the incredible offer that American had through their SimplyMiles product where you, amongst a lot of other folks, took advantage of. I think it's an example of them trying to have engaging offers on their website. So to some degree, while we haven't seen this in the filings, I think that there's, as you say, there's certainly benefit for the consumer in being able to see all their mile balances in one place, whether it's an AwardWallet or a TBG app.
On the flip side, I do understand and I think I see that if that makes me or any individual less likely to visit the American Airlines website or their collection of websites, that I might be less engaged as a customer. I might not click on an offer that I would have otherwise had to if I had to go to their page to check my balance or to check on a flight or something and then saw a banner on the bottom that said that I got an offer for 400 miles on SimplyMiles to buy something from Barnes & Noble.
So I think I do agree with you that there is a real "fight for eyeballs" here. It's not one that we've seen, I can think of, in quite this way because, as you noted with AwardWallet, certainly there were pieces of AwardWallet that were monetized, don't get me wrong. But they were a paid subscriber base. So I think that they had a little bit of a different model than what TPG is shooting for here.

Gary Leff: I mean in more recent times, AwardWallet has had a model of credit card affiliate revenue, as well as recently sending a status match offer to its members. The Frontier offer was emailed out. So they've found new ways to monetize AwardWallet. But what's interesting is American's hardly the first here to be aggressive in shutting down third-party access to their sites. Southwest, for 20 years, has been very aggressive in this regard. There used to be all sorts of services that would let you auto check in for a flight 24 hours out to get the earliest boarding numbers, and they shut those things down. They've shut down third-party sites that would display their schedules or potentially sell tickets in unauthorized ways.
There's been lawsuits between Southwest and Skiplagged over this, for instance. If you look at AwardWallet, United and Delta had shut down AwardWallet's access, although AwardWallet, you can set it up where they'll email you your statements, but it'll go to an AwardWallet address. So it goes to AwardWallet first before getting forwarded to you. You can still store your credentials in AwardWallet for those and use it to log into your account. So they haven't gone quite as far as American. But it's not new, this idea that programs are trying to control who's doing the access.

Ed Pizza: As we sit here and you've got lawsuits both on RV's behalf and American Airlines' behalf, as you look into your crystal ball, do you see the other major airlines out there? I mean obviously, United and Delta run extremely similar business models to American in terms of those eyeballs. We obviously see lots of copycat moves from American and United to a lesser degree than Delta. Do you see other airlines jumping into the fray here to stop sites like TPG from storing this data and grabbing those eyeballs?

Gary Leff: Well, I mean they could. I don't know the relationships and the conversations that have gone on behind the scenes between The Points Guy and Red Ventures and some of the other airlines. So I can't really speak to that. They've been aggressive in other areas. On the other hand, somebody might get really creative and say, "Look, without American, you may need a partner. You may need someone to help finance the lawsuit. We value the data that you're going to generate and access to the customers that you're building through this app, and we'd love to partner with you."
There might be win-wins here between an airline brand and a consumer-focused app if it was viewed as valuable enough to another program. So there's lots of different ways of conceiving of something, how something like that plays out.

Ed Pizza: Yeah. As you say, you spend enough time in an industry and you'll see everything. I certainly didn't see this coming. I certainly could see an airline filing a lawsuit, don't get me wrong. You've noted where Southwest has been particularly aggressive with that over the years. I didn't see TPG or Red Ventures as somebody who would jump first here. I don't necessarily know. I can't really say I know where this ends.
I'm curious, as you've looked at it, and I know you spent a bunch of time studying it and reached out for comment, if you had to guess, where does this go? Does this ultimately end up in a court? Or do you think that they find some way to live peacefully together on this?

Gary Leff: It may be some combination of both, actually. I think that Red Venture's made what's often a smart legal move if you see this going to litigation, which is to file first, seeking declaratory judgment in your preferred venue. You'd rather you pick a venue rather than Northern District in Texas where American Airlines is, and they know the judges and they've got a lot of friendly judges there. So you want to pick your venue, and Red Ventures did that by filing first. Now there will be questions of jurisdiction. That's something that they'll litigate.
But it tells me that Red Ventures saw this going to court or at least filing, and so they wanted to have the legal advantage. So the question, does this go to court? I mean maybe it goes to court. That's different than whether it goes to some kind of a final judgment of a court. There's a lot of road between where we are now and winding its way through the legal system. There's a lot of potential for finding common ground. There's a lot of upside and downside risk to both parties in this.
So for instance, American Airlines certainly has the resources to litigate this to the end. If they win, that's great for them, but it's also particularly costly if they lose because they don't want to be in a position where it's been determined that they're not really able to gate access to their data. That's potentially especially problematic in a world where they've leveraged their frequent flyer program to $10 billion. They have outside investors now who own debt. On the other hand, there are revenue streams that Red Ventures has that involve American Airlines. There's the overall relationship that they have that's valuable.
They'd certainly want to ensure that that doesn't go sideways. Without question, they're going to have different people involved. There's a legal team and an editorial team. These aren't the same. The people who work for American out of corporate communications are different than the council shop. But given that there's going to ultimately be a desire for good relations, and maybe there are ways of solving this in a way that is beneficial for all parties. So for instance, Red Ventures could license the data, using the API in a way that AwardWallet used to. Maybe they're in a position to negotiate something better than AwardWallet could do.
Maybe, on the other hand, American values some of the data or the ability to communicate with customers that TPG accumulates through the app who might be elite members or otherwise valuable members of other loyalty programs. There are any number of ways that American could generate benefit if they were to work constructively with Red Ventures here. I don't know what Red Ventures is willing to do. I'm not going to speculate there. I'm just saying that there ought to be a positive enough outcome along with potential risks of the negative outcome that lead the parties to a solution other than rolling the dice after spending a lot of money on lawyers.

Ed Pizza: Yeah. I don't know how much they'll end up spending on lawyers between the two of them, but there are lots of interesting questions to answer here. I think you bring up great points about the eyeballs in play because there's just so much money at stake when it comes to not only airlines, but their loyalty programs. Obviously, hotels are the same. We've seen these explode and we've seen the value explode. It'll certainly be interesting to see where this one ends up.
I don't suspect that we're going to see a quick answer, but I am certainly eager to see how things end up and, at least from my standpoint, would love to see it end up in court and see a final judgment, though you bring up great points why that may not be where we ultimately end up.

Gary Leff: I mean I would, too. As a consumer, I really do value being able to check and manage balances across a wide variety of programs in a very simple, streamlined fashion. I also think that, as a general matter, companies have had too much leeway in enforcing website terms and conditions against third parties, these adhesion contracts for things that are published on the internet. So I would like to see litigation that opens that up a little bit. I don't know whether Red Ventures would succeed.
To your point about the cost of litigation, I mean, gosh, there were either three or four big firms that were representing American led by Gibson Dunn. I mean these are not folks who bill out at low dollars. So I'd say that there's a lot on the line. There's a lot on the line for frequent flyers potentially in the litigation. But I'm not sure that it ultimately winds up going in that direction. I'm just hoping that there is some kind of a solution that would allow not just TPG, but other players in the space to, once again, access.
I was an AwardWallet user for a decade. I find it much easier to stick my own account number in there as well as my wife's and my daughter's when I had that place to go when I need the number or to see balances and quickly log in. I mean it helps me to engage in the program. It would be nice if there was a way to interact, frankly, better than the technology that a lot of the airlines' offer allows.

Ed Pizza: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I hate to say it. With AA gone from AwardWallet, I can't say that I visit the American Airlines website more. I just check my balance less frequently. So I think that's an overall loss for me as a consumer. As you make the argument, it's likely a loss for American as an airline.
Thanks for spending a few minutes with us. It's a complex issue, and I think you've done a great job helping demystify a bit of it for our listeners. For folks who may be hearing you for the first time on the show, tell them where they can find you writing on a daily basis.

Gary Leff: I write at viewfromthewing.com, and you can also find me in various social platforms at Gary Leff, G-A-R-Y, L-E-F-F.

Ed Pizza: Great. We'll have links to both of those in the show notes. Gary, thanks a bunch for being on. We appreciate the time.

Gary Leff: Thank you so much, sir.

Ed Pizza: We'll be right back on the Miles to Go Podcast.
I'm back to wrap up this bonus episode with the final two pennies. I think Brian makes some good points about how consumers should be able to use their data, just like their miles and points. Gary offered up some great thoughts about where the situation could end up. Gary understands the world of miles and points as good as anyone I know, and he really has no dog in this hunt. I appreciated getting his perspective on this. For my two cents, I do think TPG and American will find a way to play nice before a judge rules on this.
While I don't love the fact that American took a hard stance with both AwardWallet and TPG, I also recall that there is history in these things working out. Many years ago, American took a hard stance with AwardWallet on a similar issue, and the two parties ultimately found a way to work things out for for quite some time. At the end of the day, my job is to inform my listeners so that you can make the best decisions for your future travel. I'll be rooting for a report in the near future that American Airlines has restored access to AwardWallet and TPG users.
Like I said at the beginning of the show, we'll also be bringing you a regular episode later this week, so stay tuned for Mr. Kerr to join us again. We'll definitely keep you updated on the TPG and American Airlines dispute, especially if there's anything that you guys need to do in the short term. But for now, we think everybody's miles and data are safe, just a little bit less convenient now than things were just a few weeks ago.
That's a full wrap on this week's episode. You can find links to everything we discussed today in the show notes. A big thanks to all of you for tuning into this week's show. If any of you have questions or suggestions for a future show, you can drop me an email at ed@pizzainmotion.com or hit me up on social media, Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram, all @pizzainmotion. You can find me blogging daily at pizzainmotion.com. Until we upload again, we've got miles to go.